A TV DEBATE WITH A MOONIE

A TV DEBATE WITH A MOONIE!

Dr. Mose Durst, president of the Unification Church in America (Moonies), represents Sun Myung Moon, it’s founder and leader. Dr. Durst, while visiting Los Angeles, was asked to be a guest on a television program, Mid-Morning L.A., on KHJ-TV. The program director also contacted Mr. Kurt Van Gorden for the interview hopes that there would be an informal debate between the two on Unification Theology. Mr. Van Gorden, a Christian Minister, is the director of Jude 3 Missions, in Victorville, California. When the program director, Mr. Papp, told Dr. Durst that another guest was going to appear with him, he tried to cancel. Dr. Durst made a deal that he would only appear in this forum if he got the first eight minutes uninterrupted. The following are excerpts from the program, aired on KHJ-TV, channel 9, Los Angeles, CA., May 29, 1981.

INTERVIEWERS: Mr. Jay Lawrence and Ms. Meredith MacRae.

GUESTS: Dr. Mose Durst, president of Unification Church, and Mr. Kurt Van Gorden, director of Jude 3 Missions (at that time, Practical Apologetics and Christian Evangelism).

MR. LAWRENCE: “Why is there such opposition to the Moonies...? Why are Moonies called mindless? Why are raids staged to retrieve Moonies...and then people deprogram the Moonies?

DR. DURST: “That certainly is a central question...I found out that for the first 300 years the Christians were called cannibals, atheists, and were believed to be living in a constant orgy by the Romans...If we look at Jesus, He was accused of everything. Single women were accused of washing His feet with their hair. He was going around in bars and drinking. Obviously the guy is a little bit strange...People accuse us of having glazed eyes. (Taking off his glasses) It’s true, we do have glazed eyes. We have glazed eyes because we are crying for the suffering of the world and we wonder why everybody doesn’t have glazed eyes...If the world is a normal place then I agree that we are not normal.”

MS. MAC RAE: “You mentioned Jesus Christ and He was very above board in all His teachings. He went and exposed what He believed in to the world--to whom ever would believe Him. One of the things the Moonies have been criticized for has been very deceptive recruiting practices. Jesus said, ‘Come unto Me.’...Instead of you saying, ‘Come unto me and be a Moonie,’ you are saying, ‘let’s talk about the Dodgers a little bit, gee I like you’...and the next thing you know the people are in a cult. Aren’t you really robbing the people of free choice by misleading them?”

DR. DURST: “...Every significant religion has stimulated what is called an anti-religious reaction...there is topology that says they will deceive you, they’ll take advantage of you...the reality is that when you love someone, you respond to them where they are at. I like the Dodgers...I like a lot of things.”

MS. MAC RAE: “In talking about the principle of your church...you mentioned God and when you did mention Jesus, you mentioned Him as just an example of a person who was having a lot of problems with people interpreting what He was doing. But you did not say whether your religion embodied the Christ, or not.”

DR. DURST: “Yes, it does. We see Jesus as the Savior, as the central figure of human history coming to bring salvation...”

MR. LAWRENCE: “Kurt, where does he differ from you?”

MR. VAN GORDEN: “He even differs from the Unification Church from what he just said. This is what we are talking about as far as earlier when he took his glasses off and said, ‘Yes, my eyes are glazed’. I believe the eyes of the people in the Unification Church are so glazed that they cannot see the Scriptures except through the eyes of Rev. Sun Myung Moon. He said, ‘Yes, we embody the Christ’. But what does this mean? This does not mean they believe in the Christ of historic Christianity. They do not believe Jesus Christ fulfillled His mission...They believe Jesus Christ was a failure. As a matter of fact, in the Divine Principle, (p.196), it actually uses the word ‘failure’ in relationship to Jesus Christ and His mission. This is not the Jesus of Christianity...He (Dr. Durst) has not informed the public of who Jesus Christ truly is in the Unification Church.”

MR. LAWRENCE: “What would you ask Dr. Durst?”

MR. VAN GORDEN: “My question is, do you believe Jesus Christ failed in His mission, or didn’t He?”

DR. DURST: “I believe that Jesus Christ’s mission was to establish God’s ideal upon the earth...As I look at the world, the world is not God-centered, nor is it a loving place. Jesus fulfillled His mission, the people failed theirs...”

MS. MAC RAE: “Kurt, you wanted a chance to respond?”

MR. VAN GORDEN: “Yes...in my estimation, he gave a very circular answer, to basically give a snow-job to the audience. Now I would like to read directly from a Unification Church publication called the 120 Day Training Manual. It says, on page 72, ‘Because from the beginning of Creation, creation has never seen a perfected Adam fulfill the 2nd blessing. Even Jesus couldn’t fulfill the 2nd blessing. Father (Moon) is the first Adam who fulfilled the 2nd blessing.’ So Jesus failed His mission, correct me if I am wrong...Jesus failed His

mission and Moon is to fulfill what Jesus did not fulfill.”

DR. DURST: “Rev. Moon is trying to inspire people to live God-centered lives and build a better world. If that is a sin then we are all sinners. We get up every morning at 5:00, with four hours of sleep, because we are working hard to make Los Angeles and every other place a good place...let the Christian show us a higher standard and we’ll be glad to follow it...”

MR. VAN GORDEN: “Since Jesus failed His mission, according to the 2nd blessing and the Unification Church, then who is to fulfill it? Is Rev. Moon the Messiah, according to the Unification Church?”

DR. DURST: “Rev. Moon was once asked that question, ‘Are you the Messiah?’ Rev. Moon said, ‘Look, you be the Messiah...I’ll be the Messiah, let’s all work to fulfill God’s ideal.’”

MR. LAWRENCE: “Kurt, . . . have religions met their responsibilities to the world today?”

MR. VAN GORDEN: “...I am not here to attack this person. I love the person. But if the beliefs which are being called white are actually black, then we have to stand up for whatever truth is...What we teach in the Christian Church is not organized religion. What we teach...is that of all the so-called masters which have come...there is only One who ever said ‘all those who come after Me are anti-Christs, false Messiahs, and false prophets (Matthew 24:24),’---that person was Jesus Christ. He is the only one of all so-called Spiritual Masters who proved the power of God by resurrecting from the dead.”

MR. LAWRENCE: “Do you think that...Dr. Durst has said the truth?”

MR. VAN GORDEN: “I do not believe he has given a fair view of the Unification Church today. I believe what he said is not quite accurate.”

MR. LAWRENCE: “Dr. Durst, have you been accurate?”

DR. DURST: “I wish you (Kurt) could come study with me, I am sure you could do a better job than me and we’re going to need a new president in the future...”

END OF PROGRAM

There are a number of things that can be observed from this debate. (1.) Dr. durst never denied that Unification Theology says that Jesus failed His mission. (2.) He never denied that Unification Theology teaches Rev. Moon to be their Messiah. (3.) He never denied that he gave circular answers, unfair, and inaccurate views of Unification Theology, when directly challenged.

The essence of Unification Theology lies in the dualism as found in Taoist philosophy. Sun Myung Moon, and his followers, view everything (including God and the Bible) in light of this dualism, which they term as Yang and Yen; Positive and Negative; Masculine and Feminine.

According to Moon, God is dual. He himself is masculine, but He has a feminine aspect called the Holy Spirit. The two, God and the Holy Spirit, are masculine and feminine, respectively. When man fell, he also fell dually, spiritually and physically. Man, who was in need of salvation due to sin, needed, according to Moon, dual salvation, both physical and spiritual. When Jesus Christ came to earth, He was supposed to take a bride, have children, and save man dually. According to Moon, Jesus failed in His mission and took an alternative plan of dying on the cross. This purchased man’s salvation only in the spiritual level, so God had to send a second Messiah to save man physically, whom the Unification Church has named as Sun Myung Moon.

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT THIS?

1. God is not dual, He is Trinity, that is One God in three eternal Persons - Isa. 43:10, 48:16; Mt. 28:19; Jn. 1:1, 20:28; Acts 5:3,4.

2. Jesus came for the express purpose of dying for man’s sins, not to get married - Ps. 22; Isa. 53; Zech. 12:10; Jn. 3:16; Heb. 9:22; I Pet. 1:19,20; Rev. 13:8.

3. There are not two Messiahs in the Bible. There is only one who has two Advents - Isa. 7:14, 9:6; Micah 5:2; Jn. 10:8; Mt. 24:24; Jn. 14:3; Acts 1:11; Phil. 3:20,21; I Th. 4:13-17; Rev. 1:7, 22:20.

4. Man was completely saved by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, not only spiritually but also physically through the resurrection of the body - Acts 4:12; Rom. 1:16, 10:9-10; I. Cor. 15; Heb. 2:10; I Jn. 2:2. The way to receive true salvation through Jesus Christ is to believe upon Him. It is of grace and not of works. - Rom. 10:9-10; Jn. 3:14-16; Eph. 2:8.

This edition published by permission of Jude 3 Missions, P. O. Box 1901, Orange, CA 92856.